Curse

I am Judge · Jan 01, 2012, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

Any competent GvG/HA guild who has some idea of general PvP gameplay is able to make top 4 or 8 at least in a snowball AT. Losing out to the select few guilds who are very very good at the format. Some players bot, and a lot of people macro, its fairly obvious. Although its nowhere near as big of an issue as many people make out, for the most part people just complain because they lose. Even though they are pretty clueless as to how 8v8 team PvP formats work. Poor communication over vent/teamspeak is one of the biggest differences, not bots.

my guild [QC] did a few snowball AT's at the start of the season, i'll admit now 1 guy on our team is macroing, the other 7 not, yet we would repeatedly get flamed and called bots by teams just because we would beat them 10-0. Then an hour later we would go into the playoffs and lose 10-0 to [LR], surely if we were really botting we would at least cap 1?? Its simply a case of Skillz players > GvG/HA players > PvE players in this format at least.

Whilst bots and macros are problematic, the bigger "problem" is the enormous gulf in skill level between those at the top and everyone else. People just get annoyed when they repeatedly lose and thus come on forums to complain about it. This is particularly true for those players coming from a primarily PvE background, they are very used to winning as there is no real "failure" in pve, combined with very little tactical knowledge and an otherwise limited PvP skillset. These together mean that most people are not used to losing, and then enter an arena where they are going to lose a lot...

Its the same thing that happens in RA, good mesmers for example see a monk get kd'd, and "randomly/predictively" rupt him as soon as he stands up. They power block patient spirit or something and get reported for being a bot, even though they basically just know how to play the game and understand that a lot of players will cast immediately after being KD'd. People regularly confuse experience for a bot. Whilst nobody denies bots exist, they are a very small problem, most people are just clueless as to what constitutes a bot and what does not.

The problem is that most players on guild wars do not PvP regularly enough to understand all the tactics and associated knowledge that better players have. The majority of people who cry about bots have no idea what they are talking about.

+1 to this. I imagine most who complain also don't realize the greatness of changing the awful key bindings A-net themselves supplied for the game to further enhance their skill in the arena.

coil · Jan 01, 2012, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

A more workable set of suggestions that would actually fix the problems:

We'd still have drop-and-dodge bots once the flux ends, but reworking the drop/pickup system would help. It wouldn't eliminate the problem, but you'd think people would be smart enough to Icicles and then go hold the carrier's hand.

right, but you and i both know that anet "doesnt have the resources" to put any real fixes in place (aside from removing the outpost [sigh HB]). so i tried to think of some very simple bandaids that wouldn't require tooooo much manpower/hours.

i'm wary of reducing rps, even to afk guilds. it encourages participation from all communities of GW, even if some are quick to be demoralized and complain. let a bad player, who thinks he's only good enough to play with henchies, win 1 or 2 and get 5 zkeys in 2 hrs (which is a joke cause a good pve'er can get 60+ in ~2hrs)...as long as he's happy doing that, thats what matters for a game/festival and it doesn't harm anyone else (artificially diluting the brackets so that it splits arguably helps everyone).

strip RPs for all but the top16 you'll disenchant a large (arguably) population that currently participates...and de-incentivize them...and then it'll be moo nude hf ohhi lr cash +2 wild cards top 8 every single tourny. there's nothing wrong with that but...snowballs (festival events) should be fun, encouraging, and rewarding for everyone imo since they're just that: festival events. (side note, i would even argue for allowing more than 1 guild team to enter just cause during peak hours it's easy for a pve guild of >80 to get interest for at least 2 teams..then you gotta bench people, etc and that's not fun in pveland...but that would require a reworking of the guildbattle system to prevent 8 afk teams from 1 guild etc)

but, the "assigned presents" idea would be really interesting and probably change the "meta".. but might require some extra coding. too bad it probably won't get looked at :P unless the test krewe can do anything about it...whoever/whereever they are (in tatooine/skyrim?).

Martin Alvito · Jan 01, 2012, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

i'm wary of reducing rps, even to afk guilds. it encourages participation from all communities of GW

The point is that it isn't actual participation. I could care less about the price of a zkey, but forcing the afk guilds to substitute to actual play (or not show at all) would reduce the number of meaningless matches you're forced to wade through in current ATs.

The valid long term concern is that there would never be any new blood because truly terrible new players would get farmed by mediocre players and never win anything, but GW is old enough that the long term isn't worth worrying about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

strip RPs for all but the top16 you'll disenchant a large (arguably) population that currently participates...and de-incentivize them

I don't want to take their RPs away. I want to award them those RPs for match wins, rather than placement. That way, people can't simply enter a 65-team tournament, walk away from the keyboard for the next two and a half hours, and return to collect the same number of keys that players that actively played and lost the final received.

The existence of the afk guilds and forfeit guilds is what fuels the henchway problem. Why round up eight players and actually play when three players at the keyboard backed by four hench can regularly top 8 the off-peak ATs and get more keys than the guys that win? But if you get rid of the forfeit guilds and afkways, you'd need to field a real team to get sizable rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunbari Facestomper

People crying about drop and dodge bots make me laugh, especially in the recent flux we had; snowballs were so easy to dodge, even from the closest range. You didn't even have to drop the present for that

Obviously it wasn't a problem in the current flux, but it always was before (and will be again). You can game a DnD bot if you know what you're doing, but it does confer a sizable advantage in the 1v1 situations that do happen in non-flux games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

The problem is that most players on guild wars do not PvP regularly enough to understand all the tactics and associated knowledge that better players have. The majority of people who cry about bots have no idea what they are talking about.

While I agree that most of the complainers don't understand what's going on in the arena, if you're experienced you can discern the difference between a legit player and a cheater.

artdz · Jan 02, 2012, 08:34 PM // 20:34

As far as macros goes my keyboard can do them. Rather then spamming space bar I can hit it less often for the same result.

Bots however play the game for you rather then allow you to just bind the keys differently.
Bots do exist out there but after all those snowball ATs i've won they are not that prevelent. Most of the people that complain are just really bad players that want an excuse.

That being said the small amount of people with lots of bots are annoying but funny.

Heres an example: I won't point names but there are people that have DnD bots. Whenever I have the KD prepped they will dodge and drop even if I cancel cast repeatedly or at maximum distance when they can easily dodge with the present in hand.

floor · Jan 03, 2012, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

While I agree that most of the complainers don't understand what's going on in the arena, if you're experienced you can discern the difference between a legit player and a cheater.

Experienced players should get top 8 regardless. afk teams can go 3/3... for 4/2 all you have to do is play... 5/1 just suck a bit less than everyone else and 6/0 be LR/MoO/hf.

"OMG BOT" is just an excuse for the majority of players who are under performing. always has been and always will be. The same applies in GvG/RA/HA, except that the usual excuse is about lag, rather than bots. The fact that maybe you made a mistake, or ur opponent is simply better is not plausible, there must be some other reason! Theres no way its ur own fault that u lost after all!

Its always been the same in PvP, people dont like losing so would prefer to quit and make excuses than actually try to get better and ultimately start winning. PvE'rs who play pvp for 2 weeks a year, ie - snowballs (RA doesnt really count since no communication and very little teamwork is involved) have absolutely no right to beat people who pvp all year round. If you started playing tennis 1 year ago, you wouldn't expect to beat nadal/federer/djokovic etc, so why do it in a game?

I guess there is no such thing as a good player in guild wars anymore, if your winning then you must be cheating is the mentality that a lot of players have, and thats really really sad to see. This applies to all forms of PvP, not just snowball arenas.

papryk · Jan 03, 2012, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

if your winning then you must be cheating is the mentality that a lot of players have

well obviously there must be a reason for that...

that's a macro that [hf] was using last year from what I have heard

Martin Alvito · Jan 03, 2012, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

"OMG BOT" is just an excuse for the majority of players who are under performing. always has been and always will be.

I'm sorry, but you obviously don't know what you're talking about. If the opponent is cheating on pickups, you have to knock down or kill all of the cheaters around the gift down simultaneously in order to take it away. That's a very significant advantage, and the flux only magnified it.

That isn't to say that every guild that wins cheats, or even that the cheating guilds are comprised entirely of cheaters. [LR] is mostly clean in my experience. We had a very satisfying pair of fights on New Year's Eve with a completely clean group of [NuDE] opponents. But top teams that are absolutely clean tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

We guested someone we strongly suspected of cheating and proved the existence of cheaters beyond a doubt. He went afk while facing an afkway, and one member proceeded to take a gift over to him and drop it at his feet. Lo and behold, it got picked up! Explain that.

How do you know when someone is cheating? When gifts consistently get picked up without ever registering on the ground, you've found a cheater. Good humans make mistakes on pickups occasionally. Bots don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by artdz

Heres an example: I won't point names but there are people that have DnD bots. Whenever I have the KD prepped they will dodge and drop even if I cancel cast repeatedly or at maximum distance when they can easily dodge with the present in hand.

Exactly. Consistency (even when it's a poor idea) is the key.

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

I guess there is no such thing as a good player in guild wars anymore, if your winning then you must be cheating is the mentality that a lot of players have, and thats really really sad to see. This applies to all forms of PvP, not just snowball arenas.

That isn't my attitude at all, and your ignorance about the mechanics of the arena is causing you to make a prejudiced judgment about me. You're no better than the people you're criticizing. Shame on you.

Dunbari Facestomper · Jan 05, 2012, 11:37 AM // 11:37

I know and i can assure you that drop and dodging is basic stuff you're gonna see from gamers that played snowball, dragon arena, w/e it is after 4 years.
I've played with most of the "best known" snowball players and no , they are not bots, they do mistakes just as often as everybody else.

I know that there is pick up bots / macros but thats usually not the issue since the people who use those are lacking the game sense

my last opinion: I never saw a dnd bot and i dont think there will ever be a good dnd bot, if u think otherwise then just bring the proof and let me know

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 05, 2012, 02:37 PM // 14:37

So, if you say all you do is spam spacebar like everyone else, can you explain why do you pick up ALL the gifts after than anyone else?

RedDog91 · Jan 05, 2012, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Bots exist. Good players exist.
That will always be the case. If you can't tell the difference between them, then you haven't played the format enough.

Snowball arena is in no way hard. Me and my friends aren't even that good at it and we can still get a decent place in the ladder because instead of whining about losing all the time we try harder the next time. Complaining about bots is just an excuse for being bad. We know we've lost to a bot team or two, but what are you gonna do about it? Let it ruin your entire holiday?

Dunbari Facestomper · Jan 05, 2012, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Okay, since snowballs are gone for good I can reveal you something that many players didn't and still dont.

When u go to the Menu > settings; there is an X on target nearest enemy blah blah when there is no chosen target. Tap that off and all you have to do is click SPACE to pick up nearest item there is. To "abuse" this you can bind your SPACE (Attack/Do it) on other keys, for me I spam numpad 456. So you're actually smashing 4 (or more) actions to pick up the present. One of them will eventually have the perfect timing for the present that drops and you'll be the one that picks it up.

And this is the way pickup bots are made, except you use a programm that makes it automatically smash all those buttons like 100times a second

Danax · Jan 05, 2012, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I would never use bots or anything like that, but I stumbled on a site that offered bots, and in a thread, one user said "Thanks for the easy 4 mill this wintersday!" It's just really upsetting to users like me that people get away with stuff like this...I'd really like to see this change before it infects GW2. I'm not sure if it was a snowball dominance or ATS bot, but its the same to me

Tullzinski · Jan 05, 2012, 08:26 PM // 20:26

The leet pvpscumbags website does not bot/hack guild wars alone or concentrate on snowball bots. The list of bots is very large for every aspect of the game, the presearing bot cracks me up, how lazy do you have to be to bot LDOA now? The list of games they provide bots and hacks for is even larger.

There has to be a way gaming companies can pool their resources to attack the leet pvpdingleberries and other sites like them. Everything the botters use is easily available for download. Individually the companies are not winning the war here. Unless they band together gaming companies will never win this war. They are shooting arrows at ants from a hundred yards away, instead of investing in an exterminator.

/end soapbot

floor · Jan 06, 2012, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

stuff

I dont feel as if i'm being ignorant, its just called being reasonable imo, although you are entitled to ur opinion. I am not denying bots exist, i am also not trying to claim they are acceptable or good for the arena etc. I merely try to imply that they are less of a regular occurrence than people make out because most people have no clue what constitutes a bot, and what constitutes a good tactical decision, or simply good human reflexes. The mentality of many players, particularly those who lose regularly is "we lost so they must be botting", and this is where it becomes ridiculous and people are simply in denial about their own abilities.

Its probably fair to say 75% of the players accused of botting are not doing so. A bot discussion does not apply to only those teams who place in the top 3, it goes right the way down to virtually every team who is going 4/2 or better. Most of the teams are clean, and are winning games through an understanding of the arena. Those at the very very top, probably are making use of macros and other programmes, without a doubt, but who cares? since you cant stop it, just let them get on with it if it makes them feel good about themselves. There are probably 4-5 Guilds who are clearly abusing the system, and everyone knows who they are, but these guilds aside the level of botting is probably no greater than in any other pvp format, maybe 1 "secret" botter every now and then. Macros are ofc more prevalent, but these can be beaten much more easily by decent players, so really dont form part of this discussion.

Most of the people who complain about bots are those who are regularly going 2/4 or 3/3 simply because they suck, regardless of whether they face bots or not. Its this situation that frustrates me.

If the small minority of teams that do bot, insist on doing so, then so be it, nothing you me or anyone else can do will change that. Even the prospect of a ban is not scary, because you can make 20x the cost of a new account in $$$ before you even get caught...

Its just the way snowballs are, in other arenas such as GvG, and perhaps to a lesser extent HA, you are able to out-think ur opponent and as such bots have never proved to be the deciding factor in big matches. If you suck and run a bot, then you still suck. Unfortunately in snowball, the arena is so simplistic, that if you pick up presents fast, then you have won. There is no real oppurtunity for an opponent to tactically out play you, because unless you can pick up gifts, you cant score points.

The whole discussion is almost parallel to discussions about interupt bots in other PvP. The majority of ppl cannot tell the difference between randoms/predictive rupts and bots. In snowballs the lines between good and botting are more blurry, but many people still have absolutely no idea what they are looking at.

Bots do exist, but there is nothing that can be done to make them go away. Its exactly the same as athletes taking steroids irl, its not allowed, and the penalties if caught are severe. But it still happens.